I’ve been having this conversation a lot with people and its an important one. Usually all I get is histrionic screeching from Blaire White fans about how I’m a child abuser for saying what I’m saying. So it would be nice to have a more reasonable discussion about it. I should say Blaire White’s fans aren’t representative of Blaire, as Blaire invited me onto her channel to have a proper talk about it. Not sure if I’m going to or not, livestreams aren’t really my speed.
Hopefully here in the blog post I can at least address some of Jeff’s concerns and maybe get the ball rolling on the rational reasonable discussion front. Cos yeah, the Twitter storm was a bit of a hectic time, so I’ll only tease you a little about the SJW clapping hands thing you did. Just a smidge. :3
Jeff: The American College of Pediatrics (ACPed)
I know you acknowledge that they’re a conservative group later on. Though I don’t think you acknowledge just how much of a minority they are. Here is there wikipedia page which states they have 500 members. A quick Google search of “how many pediatricians are there in the USA?” Gives you the number 91,000 (rounded down). This number comes from the American Academy of Pediatrics, whose membership stands at 64,000 – more than half of all pediatricians.
Since we’re looking at what ACPed have to say about trans, why don’t we look at what AAP have to say about trans too?
So all around supportive of trans kids and their access to health care – that’s supported by a group of 64,000 pediatricians, against 500 who were purposely set up to push conservative values in medicine. I mean shit, one of the things they promote is abstinence until marriage as sex education. Your red flags should be going up pretty high right now. ACPeds bias isn’t even hidden, its right out there in the open.
Jeff: (Quoting James Barrett) If you wait until puberty has gotten a little way along, a fair proportion of the children clinic presentation and feel more like lesbian and gay kids said Barrett.
Yes, and that’s exactly what is recommended to trans kids. To allow their puberty to go a little way along and if it looks to be exacerbating their dysphoria rather than fixing it, they are offered blocker medication. To put a pause on the puberty until they’re old enough to give informed consent to hormone medication at 16.
Here’s Dr Norman Spack, the dude from that picture I keep posting, talking about how he waits until Tanner stage 2 – roughly 12-14 in boys and 10-12 in girls. Here is also Dr Polly Carmichael of the UK child gender clinic saying the exact same thing. Make no mistake, no child is transitioned needlessly, and they are absolutely never given medication unless their dysphoria is getting worse as a result of puberty. Doctors have already taken these concerns into consideration, heck, doctors are the reason we know about these concerns already. Why wouldn’t they have done something to mitigate against the harms?
Jeff: Everyone is emotionally unstable when they’re a teenager.
The key difference is the level of instability that you experience. Its normal to experience some instability emotionally and mentally. Everyone does, you’re right. But they don’t experience dysphoria – its a far more insidious problem than the typical teen problems. For a start, these problems can exist pre-teen, and in extreme cases children have reportedly threatened to cut off their own genitals.
Its kinda like you’re comparing being sad to clinical depression, and you’re mad at the clinically depressed people for having a different way of dealing with their issues than you. Some of which may include medication. But yeah no duh, one is a clinical condition, one is teenage angst. Teenage angst can definitely lead to psychopathology though, most all eating disorders are a prime example of this.
For a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children to be made, a child will have to be showing persistent, insistent and consistent gender identity. Which studies even show, trans kids do show – across measures put in place. Not even to mention the above link about positive mental health outcomes from the AAP – showing that not making a kid repress itself is great for the kid. Who woulda thought?
Jeff: it would be easier for them to transition if they go on puberty blockers, I get that, I understand that
But you don’t – people like myself and Blaire White who transitioned post puberty have spent a lot of time and effort pushing back the biological changes puberty forced upon us. As far as trannies go, we’re pretty lucky when it comes to the genetic lottery too. Whereas someone like Riley Jay Dennis isn’t.
Not allowing them to stop the effects of puberty before they take hold of your body entirely is throwing lots of trans people under the bus, its forcing them into a life of heavy dysphoria. They can’t stop how they feel about their body they can only change their body to feel less shit. You can’t even imagine the kind of mental strain that puts on someone. For me personally? It resulted in drinking and drugs, because I was heavy into my escapism from it.
Also, pretty much all of the main contributing factors to the high suicide rate of trans people come from this. A bad puberty leaves you sticking out like a sore thumb, which leads people to abuse and mistreat you. Here’s a lot of statistics about the social factors, they’re all pretty worrying, especially the unemployment, eviction and sexual assault victim rates.
We can prevent that suffering. Why not?
Jeff: Kids don’t miss an opportunity to say shit. “I wanna be Kim Kardashian when I grow up”
yeah… but do they say that persistently, insistently and consistently like trans kids? Or do they forget about it within a few hours? Apples and oranges my dude.
Spack: If they do go through puberty 29% of these kids self harm
Jeff: As opposed to how many kids who self harm anyway?
13% according to this source. So the rate for trans kids looks to be above double what it is for non-trans kids.
Spack: Up to 50% of them will die from psychosocial causes
Jeff: Citation needed!
He is the citation. He’s a doctor quoting his own numbers and experiences working with trans kids. Though you’re right, it would be cool to see his data on the matter. I’ve asked a few clinics in the UK for the same here, you’re welcome to contact Spack and ask.
Jeff: Do you want the actual statistics on what happens to post transition people? and how often they go through depression? and suicide? Cos we got those!
Okay then. Link me them in my DM @ObscuredLeg. inb4 you send me the debunked Karolinksa Institute study.
As for the high rates of depression and suicide – yes – this is exactly what Spack is warning about. Most every trans alive today transitioned post puberty because there was no other option for us as kids. So yeah, high depression and suicide rate seem to be death from psychosocial causes, don’t you agree?
Spack is making the argument we can stop that, and arguably we can. Trans kids supported in gender show normative levels of psychopathology for kids their age as the AAP study waaay above shows.
Jeff: Spack says 100% of the kids he put on puberty blockers went on to transition, and you should be thinking “that’s weird”
this one is heavily paraphrased, but the general idea is that the 100% figure is cause for conern
Except how it isn’t. Sure, either it could mean kids are being transitioned unnecessarily, or it could mean that he’s actually right and is prescribing well. There isn’t really any good evidence to support either argument as far as I can tell.
Jeff: Ofcourse if you go on blockers you’re going to continue taking them and take the hormones afterwards. You have literally nothing else to have a reference for.
Except you have some natal puberty and the fact that your genitalia, body and social role all cause you dysphoria. So that’s a pretty good reference point for telling that you’re trans. Nobody has any basis for comparison. We all only have our own experiences – you can’t tell me what its like to actually be a woman any more than I can tell you what its like to be a man. I don’t have that reference point and neither do you. Yet these kids are saying they are girls – consistently, insistently and persistently. Stands a chance that this is their reference point, no?
Jeff: You can manufacture transgender people by doing this
No you can’t. If you take a kid who isn’t trans and give them puberty blockers and hormones, they will eventually grow the wrong secondary sex characteristics and experience a medically induced dysphoria.
This is exactly the idea that Dr John Money had when he experimented on David Reimer. A botched circumcision lead to Reimer being given a vaginoplasty as an infant. Then raised as a girl and even given hormones. You know what happened? David detransitioned, and eventually killed himself at 30.
Though there was a lot of other stuff wrong with this case, such as Money sexually abusing Reimer, it pretty decisively showed that you can’t alter a kid’s gender identity. Its an innate part of themselves that doesn’t change. That’s why we focus on changing the body to make it more comfortable to ride around.
Jeff: [Puberty] is an experience every human has to go through
You’re right, and 99.7% of those people go through a puberty that is congruent with who they are. Trans kids don’t and the puberty has far reaching mental and social effects that will forever negatively impact their lives. Why shouldn’t we stand up against this?
For me personally? I think blockers are great, they should absolutely be used as and when necessary. Not on a whim, not at random, when necessary. To me that means when puberty is exacerbating dysphoria and there are no other options that can help. In this instance I can’t see a better alternative than blockers. As the alternative is to repress the feelings, which invariably lead to mental health problems and the deaths from psychosocial causes Spack talked about.
I think it would be dumb to just say “no blockers at all” rather than assessing children on a case by case basis – as they do already – and seeing what each individual kid needs specifically. Even if most kids desist as you and James Barrett put it, they will still be protected and are still protected under this methodology. For the numbers to even exist in the first place which state “most kids desist” – we must have kids who aren’t being transitioned willy-nilly before they’ve properly proven that they’re really trans.
Its great to focus on the cis kids, but these services and this medication is for trans kids specifically. We should take every step to not transition cis kids, yes, but we shouldn’t restrict trans kids from treatment all the same. That’s like… getting rid of disabled parking because sometimes people who aren’t disabled park in the spot. You’re not solving the problem for the people who the parking spot was designed for. You’re just making it worse to stop other people getting a parking fine.