Jordan B Peterson x Sargon livestream


Someone asked me to do a quick cover of this live-stream so I figured I’d get on it! Thanks for the suggestion, I’m not sure I’d have watched this otherwise. Kinda glad I did, there’s some interesting talking points to go over. I’ll try to stick to my usual style and hopefully not miss any context. Let me know in the comments if you think I missed anything or want to chat! Here’s a link to the stream.

42:57
Sargon: I can’t even imagine being in my teens and deciding that I’m going to go through some sort of huge functional change to my body, as in to transition from one gender to another, at 19. Then have everyone around you tell you “this is a completely normal thing to do, its a good idea you should do it if that’s how you feel.”

Regardless of whether you’re trans or not, you’re going to go through a huge functional change to your body in your teens. This is puberty. The decision in regards to trans, is really about which puberty you want to have. If you’re trans and experiencing dysphoria then its pretty likely that the dysphoria is going to exacerbate with a natural puberty. This is why children and parents are offered the chance to block it and then when they’re about 16 are offered hormones.

People don’t tell us its normal, if it were normal we wouldn’t need to go to a GP, we wouldn’t need to go to psychotherapy sessions, we wouldn’t need to do any of this stuff. If it were normal, and really promoted, you’d be able to get flavoured hormones in corner shops. That isn’t how it happens though, especially here in the UK. Less so in Canadia and America, but they have fairly different health care system which allow the private purchase of medication.

There are informed consent clinics for adults in the USA, where you have to prove you have given your informed consent to the treatment. I don’t know how loosely or strictly they define “informed consent” but even so this is a bit of a false comparison to the general way trans stuff works – especially for children and teens.

quick note; I know its confusing and everyone uses the words differently so I figured I’d just explain what I mean when I say trans. I mean someone who has gender dysphoria – the medical condition. So a trans kid is just a kid with gender dysphoria. 

43:29
Sargon: One thing people never emphasise is that you change. The things you want and the things you feel and the things that you think you actually want to… they change.

Does someone born with only one leg change into having two legs? How about someone born intersex? Do they just change into being one sex? Transition isn’t like a tattoo and gender dysphoria isn’t a personality choice. It’s a medical condition which has a fair amount of academia and medical science behind it supporting its existence.

As for your dad regretting his tattoos, the idea of trans regret is pretty common on the internet, but the numbers just don’t back it up.

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44:06
JBP: 
So Zucker is a psychologist a clinical psychologist and a good researcher. He worked at a mental hospital called CAMH, the center for addictions and mental health, which is the major mental hospital in Toronto.

He ran a gender dysphoria clinic there, for years and was a recognised expert in the field. By no means was he radical, not even political I would say. He doesn’t have a political bone in his body. His observations of children with gender dysphoria were quite clear and well supported by the academic literature. So children with persistent gender dysphoria about 80% of them come out as gay in their teens and 90% of them settle into their biological identity by their late teens. So his advice to parents was leave the damn hormones and knives alone, because there’s a very high probability that A) your child is homosexual and B) will adapt to their body perfectly fine and even forget about their gender dysphoria as they get older.

I’ve discussed Zucker briefly here before. Full blog post here if you want to see it, but here’s the cliff notes which apply to this quote directly.

The 80% figure is such a notorious figure that it actually has its own name. We literally call it the 80% figure. It’s a largely debunked number. It’s 20 years out of date and uses a faulty definition of Gender Identity Disorder which doesn’t include in its criteria the desire to transition. But lets imagine for a second it isn’t debunked, that’s still 10% of kids in these services who are genuinely trans. Why should they not be given access to support and treatment where necessary? Because the 90% who don’t?  90% of people never break a bone in their body, should we stop offering to put casts on people?

Peterson also made the classic mistake of assuming children are given hormones and surgery. They aren’t. If a 4 year old goes to a gender clinic they will be 12 before they are prescribed blocker medication which isn’t hormones. They will be around 16 before they get hormones and, if it hasn’t changed since I last checked, 18 to get “bottom surgery”.

That’s between 8 and 12 years of persistent, insistent and consistent gender dysphoria. It’s not something that can be easily overlooked.

As for things like social transition, ie a change of clothes, names and pronouns, NHS statistics show that only 8.9% of children in gender services are undergoing a full social transition.

This isn’t to say there aren’t outliers – there definitely are. Some children are given hormones earlier than they realistically should be and that can be dangerous. I don’t think anyone is saying that absolutely never happens. It does and most of us are against it, including doctors such as Doctor Polly Carmicheal and Dr Norman Spack who run child gender services in the UK and the US respectively. Both of whom recommend that some natural puberty take place before blockers are prescribed.

JBP: Zucker got fired, he was taken down by social justice activists….

…There was nothing radical about what he said at all. All he said was caution is the watch word.

Not entirely true. One of the leading reasons behind Zucker’s dismissal was his alleged mistreatment of a trans patient – which may or may not have been false. I can’t find a source, but if I recall correctly he told a trans teen to take off their top and called them ugly, or something to that effect. Not to mention his fraudulent use of libel law in order to silence critics of his ideas. He’s basically an SJW himself.

By no means is Zucker clean here. Its massively disingenuous to suggest that he is.

Zucker’s methodology, to me, is a bad methodology to use in a gender services clinic for trans kids. His methods fundamentally focused on affirming biological sex – which is great for those who aren’t actually trans. Absolutely. We don’t want non-trans kids transitioning because that’s bad. The problem is that his idea isn’t just applied to non-trans kids. It’s also applied to trans kids.

One of the big problems with being trans is the mental health aspects that come with it. The depression and the anxiety. These are partly due to the fact that trans people repress pretty hard. However studies have shown that kids supported in their gender and allowed social transition, ie not repressed,  show normative levels of psychopathology for children their age. No depression. No anxiety. Combine this with the fact that the 80% number is bunk & with the fact only 8.9% of children are in social transition – and you get a better picture. The gender affirmative way is vastly superior to Zucker’s biological affirmative way.

Basically we have two main options. One will help the non-trans kids but harm the trans kids. The other helps trans kids and doesn’t harm the non trans kids – it especially doesn’t if the 80% and 90% figures which JBP believes are true, are true. That’s why Zucker was fired.

46:22
JBP:
They’re gonna have an absolute fit in their 20s when they realise what was done to them.

This implies that they don’t already know what was done, or that they somehow didn’t want it. Transition isn’t forced upon people ever. I mean… its probably happened a few times… like.. Iran… but we all agree that that’s bad and it isn’t the general practice of clinics at all.

I don’t know of many case studies – because trans children being taken seriously is really rare. Though I do know one trans person who transitioned as young as 13 and is now 24. That’s Kim Petras, German transsexual extraordinaire. You may have seen her in a 4chan meme or even just heard of her casually on TV about 8 years ago. From what I can see online she doesn’t seem to be hating it or upset about it at all. She seems happy.

I get the concern, but its fundamental misunderstanding of trans to suggest we’re all just going to get bored of it when we’re 20+. Gender dysphoria isn’t just some temporary fleeting feeling. It’s a burden that never leaves and rules your life until you minimise it somehow.

46:42
Sargon:
 The hormones increase your risk of cancer

They increase your risk of specific cancers, yes. You’re far more likely to get breast cancer if you have breasts and are taking oestrogen, especially considering 80% of breast cancers are oestrogen dependent. However this is a very cherry picked concern, because on the flipside its very easy to prove that transition decreases cancer risk too.

For example. A trans man, so a biosex female, who takes testosterone therapy will have a significantly lower chance of getting breast cancer – because again, 80% of breast cancer is reliant on oestrogen. Likewise, its suppressing testosterone in trans women decreases the risk of testicular cancer to the point where only one case has ever been reported.

Being surprised and concerned that women have a higher risk of breast cancer than men is retarded. Of course they do.

49:22
JBP:
It’s all being pushed by a radical ideology about the nature of identity. That’s so primitive this idea that identity is your choice.

You’re now falling into the classic trap of conflating transgender with transsexual – all whilst having spoken at length about transsexuals above. For transsexual people identity is not a choice, we do not choose who we are and if we could – don’t you think we’d choose not to transition? Not to go through this bullshit? Obviously not. We have a medical condition and we are just doing the best we can to get through life with that medical condition whilst maintaining some semblance of happiness along the way.

The transgender crowd are the ones who believe identity is a choice, that you can just identify a certain way and then poof, suddenly you are that certain way. This is the classic Rachel Dolezal thing, where she says she identifies as black which means, to her, and the ID politics shitlords that she is black. Conflating this with medically recognised conditions like transsexualism isn’t fair at all. You’ll find most transsexuals are also against identity politics and the transgender bullshit which is making our lives harder to live.

Including myself, who didn’t blog about trans issues at all until I made a twitter account and learnt of the terrible misinformation being put out there by cis people pretending they’re trans. Here’s a post on the transgender umbrella I wrote a while back, outlining some of the problems they create for us.

50:37
Sargon:
I don’t understand how you can say there are more than two genders

Gender – in the way that the ID pol SJWs and “social constructionists” use it isn’t the same as the way most other people use it. To me and transsexual people, gender is just a word we use to describe the difference in our brain that makes us experience dysphoria. That’s all. For most people their brains (gender) align with sex, so these words are totally interchangeable, except for when it comes to trans. That’s literally it, in my understanding.

In the ID pol/SJW/Feminist understanding, gender is entirely socially constructed. Its separated into three categories. Identity. Roles. Presentation. What the ID pol crowd do is think that they can change a small part of the three and it suddenly makes a new gender.

As an example; “woman” as a gender in this definition would be of a female identity, have a female role and present as a female. Obviously all of the things associated with that are socially constructed, like wearing dresses or being a home-maker. They don’t have to be that way they just are as a result of our society and interactions. What they like to argue next is that if they change one of those things it creates a new gender – this is what non-binary identities are all about. Smashing through the typical binary idea of gender and stepping outside of the lines.

So if you’re a female who presents as masculine and not typically feminine – by their definition you are non-binary. Which also goes on to explain how genderqueer and genderfluid works – they change one aspect of the three things that make up gender and think it has made a new gender. Its fairly stupid, I think we all agree.

56:15
JBP: “especially the guys who are transitioning to women, who are not attractive and that’s almost all of them. Very few women are attractive women. Men who are attractive women is vanishingly small. Especially if they’re tall or they have broad shoulders 
Sargon:
Or large hands
JBP: Or they’re masculine looking. They make terrible looking women.

We’ve kinda come full circle now. You say these things about the differences between biological sexes – which are almost entirely down to hormones and puberty. Yet you also aim to deny teens the opportunity to not have broad shoulders, or large hands, or be masculine looking and tall. You tell them no, you should wait until after puberty, until after these changes have already happened and can’t be reversed.

Then you bitch and moan about how they’re ugly and masculine – how they don’t “pass” as terminology goes. This problem could be easily solved, above I mentioned Kim Petras, who because she was able to get blocker medications and not go through a male puberty doesn’t have any of those problems you both listed. This could be the norm for trans women if we stopped trying to force trans children to go through a puberty that is going to cause them problems later in life.

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You’re right, very few trans women win the genetic lottery and transition into attractive women – and you know what? Trans women still don’t care. We’re still happy being ourselves and not having the crushing weight of dysphoria pressing down on us every day. I’d take being an ugly bull-dyke tranny over being a repressed and depressed 10/10 attractive dude. It isn’t about whether people think I’m pretty or not, it never was.

That’s part of the reason I don’t post my pictures online – I see the way people treat people like Blaire White and Riley Jay Dennis based on their appearance. I don’t want that. I don’t want people looking at my content and the best thing they have to say about me is “omg ur so pretty” or “omg ur so ugly”. I want them to address my ideas. I want real respect, not the phoney skin deep kind.

I think that’s the end of their discussion on trans stuff. I tried to cover it all but if you think I missed something or you want to ask me anything, my DMs are always open on Twitter or you can drop something in the comments section below. 

 

 

 

 

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8 thoughts on “Jordan B Peterson x Sargon livestream

  1. Aoifeschatology says:

    Just a note to thank you for your willingness to chat and clear the air this afternoon. It was very courteous of you to do so, and give me the benefit of the doubt. Thank you, good luck, and I’ll be following your writing.
    -aoife

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Depends (@JustDep3ndsOn) says:

    I’m a recent follower from the whole Blaire thing today. And I have to say this was very good read. I mean I know everyone is not always right but It’s nice to be reminded that even Jordan who is a very respected man and I myself find respectable, is still human and can be wrong about some things.

    Liked by 1 person

    • cursede says:

      Thanks dude! Nice to meet you and welcome to my blog!

      Yeah, I think people see people they respect and take their side because they respect them – without being critical of what they’re saying. I figure if no one else is doing it then I should probably fill that gap a little.

      Look forward to seeing you on twitter and around my comments 🙂

      Like

  3. anazhtontastaelysia says:

    “if I recall correctly he told a trans teen to take off their top and called them ugly, or something to that effect”

    That was what the 2015 review of CAMH claimed but the accusation was proven -partly- false (a clinician had indeed asked a patient to take off their top and called them a “hairy little vermin,” but the patient mistook them for Zucker).

    http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/01/false-charge-helped-bring-down-kenneth-zucker.html

    That being said, Signal treats Zucker way too kindly here -which is to be expected because he defends his practices constantly. If you read Zucker’s take on trans people, search his influences that include conversion therapists like Richard Green and various (awful) statements he has made over the years, it is extremely obvious that he was practising conversion therapy. A good example is this quote from the book “The Man Who Would be Queen”

    http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/JMichael-Bailey/TMWWBQ.pdf

    “It is the disordered and chaotic family, according to Zucker, that can’t get its act together to present a consistent and sensible reaction to the child, which would be something like the following: “We love you, but you are a boy, not a girl. Wishing to be a girl will only make you unhappy in the long run, and pretending to be a girl will only make your life around others harder.””

    That such repulsive words are in Zucker’s mind “a sensible reaction” to a child coming out transgender says a whole lot about the sort of “doctor” he is. “Being yourself will only make life harder for those you love.” What piece of shit tells that sort of a thing to a little kid? Honestly, it’s people like him whom I consider responsible for all the awfulness I have been through mentally and the almost three decades I lived miserably until I started transitioning. Not to mention that Zucker and his defenders (Blanchard, Bailey, TERFS, etc.) constantly argue their best against laws banning conversion therapy, in WPATH symposiums and articles they publish. See article below, chapter June 16.

    http://transadvocate.com/part-iii-the-report-controversy-the-rise-and-fall-of-discosexology-dr-zucker-camh-conversion-therapy_n_19672.htm

    Also check the comments in regards to Zucker and his love for suing those who critique him or even offer material for his critique.

    Honestly it would be much more difficult for people to defend him if there were more individuals like Erika Muse, willing to speak about what they experienced, but unfortunately that has not been the case.

    Liked by 1 person

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